And, and just imagine you're a brand new product manager, you look online, probably what 90% of the content out there is from the feature team world or worst. And so unless they get really lucky or they happen to be really lucky and have a manager that is like guiding them in a good direction, it just propagates. model. most of the stuff they announce couple times a year is already out or or in in experiment to most people. One thing I wanted to clarify so you call this the product operating model. there's also the thr product ops, which you touched on a little bit. Any thoughts on product ops. we've had a few guests here talk about it. It's tricky. I mean, um, first of all, product ops, some people have asked me is product ops the same as product operating model? No, that was just a very unfortunate name conflict. Um, but uh, product ops is more analogous to dev ops and design ops. that's all now. Can you use product ops in the product operating model? Absolutely. if you're using one of the definitions that are part of the model. So for example, the heart of product ops in the good companies, I know is user research and data analysts. And the only difference is they're now brought together in under one product ops leader. that's all that. That is the same. You know, how long has that been with us? Lenny? More than 20 years? TE companies have had user research teams and have had data analyst teams to help you make decisions qualitatively and help you make teams quantitatively. So that's not new at all, but it is good. And I think there's a, there is some amount of value about bringing that in some companies. Of course, they they interpret and define product ops very differently. A lot of them, unfortunately think of it, they focus on the whole phrase of, uh, process in governance that's like a huge red flag. and I try to tell people if that's what you see, run don't walk away from that. The other thing that's going on in a lot of companies, it is amazing to me how creative companies can be to try to find a way to justify giving product manager's assistance because you know the product manager says too much work, which which is really ironic to me because they're usually feature teams that are saying this and I'm like, it's not even enough for your job. but anyway, they're like too much work and so they're like, well, we need help and so for a while they would all have these little associate product managers and then a lot of companies they have, oh we also have product owners, product manager and product owner makes no sense huge anti-pattern today. A lot of companies use the same excuse but its product manager has product ops people to do the dirty work. No, and honestly, I don't think I would not want to be one of those people because I think they're very vulnerable right now. I've changed my mind on product ops. One reason is because because I I also was like, why do I I just want to I don't need another person in the loop on everything I'm doing. I just want to have, I don't Yeah, I don't know why I would do that, even though I have endless work and I have working crazy hours. But I think one of the great things about product ops people that I talk to is there's not many of them they like you need one often to do a ton and to help a lot of different teams. So it's not like a team that just grows like crazy. That's what I like. Same with user research, by the way. and you had a very good guest on that, I think tried to make that point as well, a small, high leverage group. So it works for data analysts, it works for user research where they are helping the teens do the work they need to do. But that's where it really depends what they're doing. I will tell you I've seen too many companies where the product leaders are not doing their job. So what they do is they hire product ops to try to do their job. They're like, they're the ones now responsible for educating the product managers. that's that's just not good. I have just a few more questions before we model. most of the stuff they announce couple times a year is already out or or in in experiment to most people. One thing I wanted to clarify so you call this the product operating model. New Text