35 years of product design wisdom from Apple, Disney, Pinterest and beyond | Bob Baxley Bob Baxley on Design, Culture, and the Moral Obligation of Building Great Products Final Summary: This conversation with Bob Baxley explores various facets of product design, team building, and company culture. Key takeaways include the importance of a design-led (not necessarily designer-led) mindset, the moral obligation to create user-friendly products, the strategic value of design tenants over principles, the significance of early team collaboration, and the power of clear vision in achieving efficiency and product excellence. Baxley emphasizes the need for designers to understand the emotional impact of their work and encourages a shift from a control-oriented to a choreography-oriented approach in leadership. He also shares a compelling story about the Apollo program, highlighting the importance of championing bold ideas and the power of perseverance. The conversation concludes with Baxley's recommendations for books, movies, and products that exemplify design excellence and his personal use of AI as a life coach. Chapter 1: Apple, Pinterest, and the Importance of Cultural Fit - Section 1.1: Steve Jobs' Favorite Product - Summary: Baxley recounts a story about Steve Jobs' favorite product, emphasizing the lasting impact of Apple's culture and its focus on continuous improvement. The story highlights the ephemeral nature of individual products versus the enduring influence of a strong company culture. Key Terms: Apple culture , long-lasting impact , product longevity , continuous improvement Section 1.2: Leaving Apple and the Challenges of Cultural Transition - Summary: Baxley discusses his experiences at Pinterest and other companies after leaving Apple, highlighting the challenges of transitioning from a strong corporate culture. He emphasizes the importance of adapting values while adjusting behaviors to fit a new organizational culture. He openly shares his unsuccessful stint at Pinterest, attributing it to a mismatch in work styles and cultural expectations. Key Terms: Cultural transition , Apple car wash , values vs. behaviors , cultural fit , successful immigration , recalibration , Pinterest culture . Section 1.3: Lessons Learned from Pinterest and Avoiding Future Culture Clashes - Summary: Baxley shares key lessons from his experience at Pinterest, emphasizing the importance of understanding a company's values regarding design before joining. He stresses the need for "air cover" from leadership to ensure design is valued within the organization. He also highlights the importance of identifying whether design is inherent in a company's DNA or an afterthought. Key Terms: Design-led vs. designer-led , root DNA , organizational alignment , shared value system , design as a mindset . Chapter 2: Design as a Holistic Mindset and Strategic Advantage - Section 2.1: Redefining Design - Summary: Baxley offers a unique perspective on design, defining it as "clear thinking made visible" and a holistic mindset focused on imagining and creating a desired future. He differentiates design thinking from scientific observation and engineering's step-by-step approach. He emphasizes the importance of a design mindset within the entire organization. Key Terms: Design as clear thinking , holistic mindset , future-oriented , intentionality , design mindset , organizational design thinking . Section 2.2: The Strategic Value of Design - Summary: Baxley argues for the strategic value of design, emphasizing its role in achieving organizational alignment and creating cohesive, efficient products. He uses examples like Apple, Lego, and Airbnb to illustrate how design-centric organizations operate with greater efficiency and smaller teams, achieving a "synergy" or "genius" that's difficult to replicate in larger teams. He likens the ideal team size to that of the Beatles, highlighting the importance of a small, focused group for innovation. Key Terms: Organizational alignment , cohesive products , efficiency , synergy , genius , The Beatles analogy , design by committee . Chapter 3: Design's Relationship with Product Management and Engineering - Section 3.1: Designled, Not Designerled - Summary: Baxley clarifies the distinction between "design-led" and "designer-led" companies. He emphasizes that a design mindset can be adopted by individuals in any role, and he advocates for clear boundaries and respect between design, product management, and engineering teams. He uses a baseball analogy to illustrate the importance of each team member playing their position effectively. Key Terms: Design-led vs. designer-led , product mindset , respecting boundaries , collaboration , creative tension . Section 3.2: The Case for Design Reporting to Engineering - Summary: Baxley presents a counterintuitive argument for design reporting to engineering, suggesting that this structure fosters tighter collaboration and prevents design decisions from being detached from technical feasibility. He acknowledges alternative organizational structures but argues that design often lacks the budget and authority to be truly independent. He emphasizes the importance of aligning goals across product, engineering, and design to ensure everyone is working towards the same outcome. Key Terms: Design reporting to engineering , phase zero , technical feasibility , collaboration , aligned goals . Section 3.3: Practical Tips for Integrating Design and Engineering - Summary: Baxley offers practical advice for integrating design and engineering, focusing on identifying "creative technologists" within engineering who can bridge the gap between conceptual design discussions and technical implementation. He stresses the importance of shared ownership and buy-in from all team members, achieved through early and consistent collaboration. He emphasizes that the goal is not simply buy-in but shared ownership and pride in the final product. Key Terms: Creative technologists , early collaboration , shared ownership , buy-in , makers , emotional investment . Chapter 4: Design Tenants, Moral Obligations, and the Medium of Software - Section 4.1: Design Tenants vs. Principles - Summary: Baxley distinguishes between design principles (general guidelines) and design tenants (specific, actionable rules for decision-making). He argues that tenants are more effective in guiding design choices and preventing endless debates. He shares examples of design tenants used at Thoughtspot, emphasizing their role in simplifying the user experience and maintaining product cohesion. Key Terms: Design tenants , decision-making tools , design principles , paper vs. plastic analogy , cohesion , clarity . Section 4.2: The Moral Obligation to Build Great Products - Summary: Baxley argues that building great products is a moral obligation for those in the tech industry, emphasizing the pervasive impact of software on people's daily lives. He highlights the frustration and wasted energy caused by poorly designed software and advocates for designers to prioritize user experience and minimize unnecessary demands on users. Key Terms: Moral obligation , user experience , emotional energy , anonymous medium , cognitive friction . Section 4.3: Software as a Medium - Summary: Baxley explores the concept of software as a medium, drawing parallels to film, music, and other creative mediums. He emphasizes the emotional impact of software and the importance of designers being conscious of the emotions they evoke in users. He uses the example of a restaurant point-of-sale system to illustrate how design choices can impact users' emotional experiences. Key Terms: Software as a medium , emotional response , user experience , purposeful design , design as a moral imperative . Chapter 5: Practical Tips, Counterintuitive Lessons, and the Future of AI - Section 5.1: Containing the Design Process While Achieving Great Outcomes - Summary: Baxley offers practical advice for founders and product managers on how to streamline the design process without sacrificing quality. He emphasizes the importance of clear communication and providing designers with sufficient context and a well-defined creative brief. He cautions against prematurely creating high-fidelity prototypes, suggesting that focusing on the conceptual aspects first leads to more efficient and effective design. Key Terms: Clear communication , creative brief , high-fidelity prototypes , conceptual clarity , ambiguity . Section 5.2: The Counterintuitive Lesson of Delaying Visual Expression - Summary: Baxley shares a counterintuitive lesson: waiting as long as possible before creating visual representations of a product. He introduces the concept of the "primal mark," arguing that prematurely creating visuals can limit creative exploration and lead to suboptimal solutions. He advocates for a more conceptual and conversational approach to design, emphasizing the importance of exploring multiple ideas before committing to a visual representation. He also discusses the risks of using AI prototyping tools too early in the design process. Key Terms: Primal mark , conceptual exploration , ambiguity , AI prototyping tools , high-resolution feedback . Section 5.3: AI Corner: Using AI as a Life Coach - Summary: Baxley shares his experience using AI as a life coach, highlighting its ability to reflect back patterns and insights from his "undermind" (unconscious thought processes). He emphasizes that while AI is a valuable tool, it's not a substitute for human interaction and professional guidance. Key Terms: AI as a life coach , undermind , pattern recognition , conscious vs. unconscious thought , compiled vs. interpreted code . Chapter 6: The Apollo Program, Lightning Round, and Final Thoughts - Section 6.1: Lessons from the Apollo Program - Summary: Baxley shares a story about John Houbolt and his advocacy for the lunar orbit rendezvous during the Apollo program. This story illustrates the importance of patience, perseverance, and having the courage to champion bold ideas, even in the face of opposition. Key Terms: Lunar orbit rendezvous , John Houbolt , championing ideas , perseverance , courage of convictions . Section 6.2: Lightning Round - Summary: A rapid-fire segment where Baxley shares his recommendations for books ("Elements of Typographic Style," "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," "Time and the Art of Living"), movies ("Severance," "Lawrence of Arabia"), products (Leica M6 film camera, Habitica), and a life motto ("Design is clear thinking made visible," "There's nothing worse than a brilliant image of a fuzzy concept," "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together"). He also shares his perspective on the Golden State Warriors and the importance of team dynamics over reliance on individual players. Key Terms: Books , movies , products , life motto , team dynamics . Section 6.3: Final Thoughts - Summary: Baxley provides information on how to connect with him online (bobbaxley.com, LinkedIn) and emphasizes the importance of collective responsibility in creating a better digital world. He concludes by highlighting the need for greater care and consideration in designing software that impacts billions of people daily. Key Terms: Collective responsibility , digital world , user experience , moral obligation . 35 years of product design wisdom from Apple, Disney, Pinterest and beyond | Bob Baxley Hundreds of daily interactions with technology are often frustrating: Many people experience daily frustrations with software, impacting their energy levels and overall well-being. This highlights a moral obligation for product creators to prioritize user experience and build better products. Design is a holistic mindset, not just visual expression: Bob Baxley defines design as "clear thinking made visible," emphasizing a holistic approach that involves envisioning a desired future and taking steps to make it real. He contrasts this with the observational nature of science and the incremental approach of engineering. Successful companies integrate design from the start: Baxley argues that design isn't something that can be successfully added later; it must be integral to a company's core values and DNA from its inception. He highlights the importance of founders understanding and valuing design. Leaving a strong company culture requires recalibration: Transitioning from a powerful culture like Apple's requires careful recalibration. Baxley shares his experience at Pinterest, highlighting the importance of adapting behaviors while maintaining core values. He emphasizes holding onto values (attention to detail, product excellence, customer focus) while adapting behaviors to the new culture. Failure in a job doesn't define your career: Baxley emphasizes that career setbacks are a part of the journey and don't necessarily define one's long-term success. Assess a company's design values during interviews: When considering new opportunities, Baxley focuses on whether the company genuinely values design at its core, ensuring alignment between his values and the company's culture. He looks for a credible story demonstrating design's importance from the company's founding. Design should ideally report to engineering: Baxley suggests that design is most effective when integrated early in the engineering process, rather than as a separate, later stage. This ensures engineering's involvement from the beginning, leading to better alignment and more efficient product development. Small, focused teams are crucial for innovation: Baxley uses the Beatles as a metaphor, emphasizing that smaller, tightly knit teams are more effective at generating innovative ideas and achieving a cohesive product. He notes that larger teams can struggle with the ambiguity inherent in creating something truly new. Building great products is a moral obligation: Baxley emphasizes the widespread impact of poorly designed software on users' daily lives and argues that product creators have a moral obligation to build user-friendly, intuitive products that enhance, rather than detract from, people's well-being. Observe users interacting with software, even outside your product: Baxley stresses the importance of directly observing users interacting with software to gain a deeper understanding of their experiences. This includes observing users in various contexts, not just while using the specific product being developed. Software is a medium with an emotional component: Baxley views software as a medium capable of evoking strong emotional responses in users, ranging from frustration to empowerment. He advocates for conscious design choices that aim to elicit positive emotions and enhance the user experience. Design tenants vs. principles: Baxley differentiates between design principles (general guidelines like "simple" or "clear") and design tenants (specific, actionable rules that guide decision-making). He argues that tenants are more effective for resolving design debates and ensuring consistency. Wait to draw or prototype until the concept is clear: Baxley advises against creating visual representations too early in the design process. He argues that premature visualization can limit creative exploration and lead to suboptimal solutions. Use AI as a life coach to clarify your thinking: Baxley uses AI as a tool for self-reflection, leveraging prompts to identify blind spots and outdated mindsets. He finds it particularly helpful for clarifying thoughts and patterns that are difficult to articulate consciously. The Apollo program offers valuable leadership lessons: Baxley draws parallels between the Apollo program and product development, highlighting the importance of clear vision, embracing uncertainty, and having champions for innovative ideas. He emphasizes the importance of advocating for ideas rather than oneself. Three key books: Elements of Typographic Style (Robert Bringhurst), Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (Robert M. Pirsig), and Time and the Art of Living (Robert Grudin). Favorite recent movie/TV show: Severance (TV show) and Lawrence of Arabia (movie). Favorite product: Leica M6 camera and Habitica (app). Life motto: "Design is clear thinking made visible," "There's nothing worse than a brilliant image of a fuzzy concept," and "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together." 35 years of product design wisdom from Apple, Disney, Pinterest and beyond | Bob Baxley Interactive Q&A Sheet: Bob Baxley on Design, Apple, and the Moral Obligation of Building Great Products This Q&A sheet is based on a conversation with Bob Baxley, a veteran designer with experience at Apple, Pinterest, and other tech giants. Basic Questions: 1. What is Bob Baxley's background? - Bob Baxley is a designer, executive, and advisor with over three decades of experience building and leading design teams at prominent tech companies including Apple, Pinterest, Yahoo, and THSpot. He's played a key role in designing products used by hundreds of millions worldwide, such as the Apple online store, Apple App Store, and Pinterest. He also mentors individuals and advises organizations on improving digital product design. 2. What is Bob Baxley's perspective on design? - Bob views design not just as visual aesthetics but as a holistic mindset . He quotes Edward Tufte: "Design is clear thinking made visible." For him, design involves imagining a desired future and taking steps to make it real. It's about intentionality and considering a broader range of constraints than other methodologies like engineering or science. 3. Why does Bob believe building great products is a moral obligation? - Bob argues that modern life involves countless interactions with software. Many of these interactions are frustrating and inefficient, negatively impacting people's emotional energy. He believes product creators have a responsibility to mitigate this, creating products that enhance, rather than detract from, users' lives. He emphasizes the anonymity of software; users often don't connect the frustration they experience with the people who built the product. Advanced Questions: 4. What are some key takeaways from Bob's experience leaving Apple? - Bob's time at Pinterest was unsuccessful, primarily due to a culture clash . He attempted to apply his direct, intense work style from Apple, which didn't fit Pinterest's culture. A key lesson is to retain your values (e.g., attention to detail, product excellence) but adapt your behaviors to the new company culture. He also highlights the difficulty of growing emotionally and developmentally at the same pace as a rapidly growing company. 5. How does Bob advise companies to see the strategic value of design? - Bob emphasizes organizational alignment around a company's philosophy and vision. He compares effective design to a well-constructed wall (cohesive and integrated), contrasting it with scattered bricks (disjointed and inefficient). Companies like Apple, Lego, and Airbnb are cited as examples of design-centric organizations where everything works together seamlessly. This leads to greater efficiency, simpler onboarding, and smaller, more effective teams. 6. Why does Bob suggest design report to engineering? - Bob argues that having design as "phase zero" of the engineering process prevents design and product from creating solutions that are technically challenging or impossible to implement. This ensures that engineering is involved early, fostering a shared understanding and enthusiasm for the final product. He acknowledges that design as an independent entity is possible but notes that design often lacks the budget and resources to effectively function this way. 7. What are design tenants, and how do they differ from design principles? - Bob distinguishes between principles (e.g., simple, clear, beautiful) which are aspirational but not actionable, and tenants , which are concrete decision-making tools. He uses the example of Steve Jobs' three tenants for Keynote: difficult to make ugly presentations, cinematic transitions, and prioritizing innovation over PowerPoint compatibility. At THSpot, his three tenants were: documentation is a failure state, start simple and let users opt into complexity, and the product should feel like it came from a single mind. 8. What is Bob's counterintuitive lesson on prototyping? - Bob advises waiting as long as possible before creating visual prototypes. He calls the first visual representation the "primal mark," which can prematurely constrain creative thinking. He advocates for conceptual and conversational exploration of ideas before jumping to visual expression, as this allows for more innovative and less obvious solutions. He uses the example of a product manager who insisted on a blue link, even though it didn't fit the overall design, because it was the most obvious solution. 9. How does Bob use AI as a life coach? - Bob leverages AI to identify his blind spots and outdated mindsets. He uses AI to reflect patterns in his "undermind" (subconscious thought processes) back to him in language, helping him clarify his thinking and identify areas for improvement. He emphasizes that AI is a tool to augment, not replace, human interaction and coaching. Additional Thought-Provoking Questions: How can designers better communicate the value of their work to non-designers, especially in organizations that don't prioritize design? What are the ethical implications of building software that causes frustration and confusion for users? How can companies foster a culture that values both speed and quality in the design process? What are the potential benefits and drawbacks of using AI prototyping tools in the design process? How can we ensure that the future of AI is not solely defined by dystopian narratives perpetuated in popular culture?